Curse

chowmein69 · Nov 03, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

monk .

«Ripskin · Nov 03, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Monks. imo have always been the ones who rely on another profession the most, wether its defensive warrior skills, shadow art assassin skills, necro blood, mesmer inspiration, dervish earth prayers, and such.

Wrong :P

We don't rely on other professions, we just use them to maximize our effectiveness.

I'd say Necro, just because I've never seen even a half decent necro build that didn't use other professions as major skills.
Edit: As I read through all of these comments I'm realizing that everyone's saying things like 'not being able to outheal damage'

Who has the healing prayers? Protection prayers? None of that indirect protection crap.

[skill]Divine Spirit[/skill] is ftw, who cares about your crappy glyph. [skill]Shield Of Deflection[/skill] try to hit me, it'll be funny. [skill]Word Of Healing[/skill] Ouch, that almost hurt. [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] thanks, I needed that energy boost. [skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill] additional monk phrase.

Come onnnn

Avarre · Nov 03, 2007, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Warrior.

There are two classes in the game - Warriors, and people that make Warriors kill faster.

The Warrior is dependent on the midline to shut down defenses and the monks to keep them up as they push on the enemy. People die to warriors, and hence they either try to shut the warriors down or kill the other team (with warriors) before the other warriors kill them. Thus, it is everyone else's job to make sure the warrior can, and continues to, do his job.

A Warrior without support ends up with snares, 9000% chance to be blocked, blind, and is linebacked while his bull's strike is diverted.

(Sins and Dervishes are merely a subset of Warriors)

Faer · Nov 03, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

[skill]Divine Spirit[/skill] is ftw, who cares about your crappy glyph.

That's just being silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

[skill]Shield Of Deflection[/skill] try to hit me, it'll be funny.

o ok, lemme call over somebody on my team who happens to have enchantment removal. BRB!

Great spell, but your comment is ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

[skill]Word Of Healing[/skill] Ouch, that almost hurt.

This is not 2005.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

[skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] thanks, I needed that energy boost.

Boost? A net loss of 3e is a boost? If you say so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

[skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill] additional monk phrase.

Great spell.

«Ripskin · Nov 03, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

7 energy back + regen.

Enchantment removal is a one time shot, bud.

Yeah, divine spirit is a once in 60 seconds, but still, I like it more.

PvE for woh

Rhedd · Nov 03, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

Wrong :P

We don't rely on other professions, we just use them to maximize our effectiveness.

I'd say Necro, just because I've never seen even a half decent necro build that didn't use other professions as major skills.
Edit: As I read through all of these comments I'm realizing that everyone's saying things like 'not being able to outheal damage'

Who has the healing prayers? Protection prayers? None of that indirect protection crap.

[skill]Divine Spirit[/skill] is ftw, who cares about your crappy glyph. [skill]Shield Of Deflection[/skill] try to hit me, it'll be funny. [skill]Word Of Healing[/skill] Ouch, that almost hurt. [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] thanks, I needed that energy boost. [skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill] additional monk phrase.

Come onnnn

That'd be an awesome build if you could, you know, have three elites on your bar at once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Warrior.

There are two classes in the game - Warriors, and people that make Warriors kill faster.

The Warrior is dependent on the midline to shut down defenses and the monks to keep them up as they push on the enemy. People die to warriors, and hence they either try to shut the warriors down or kill the other team (with warriors) before the other warriors kill them. Thus, it is everyone else's job to make sure the warrior can, and continues to, do his job.

A Warrior without support ends up with snares, 9000% chance to be blocked, blind, and is linebacked while his bull's strike is diverted.

(Sins and Dervishes are merely a subset of Warriors)

Let me guess... you play a Warrior. (That's my polite way of calling BS on your idea of how the game works.)

Go ask an elementalist what they think of your theory. ^_^

As a non-interrupt ranger, I promise my job has nothing whatsoever to do with anything the warriors are doing.

Bryant Again · Nov 03, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

In PvE or PvP?

«Ripskin · Nov 03, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Rhedd: My bar usually consists of mixtures of non elite spells that do almost the same exact thing but not as efficiently.

I'm just trying to show that monks don't exactly need anything.
edit:
without misspelling everything I type... fixed

Faer · Nov 03, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

7 energy back + regen.

So I suppose you subscribe to the theory that LoD is free?

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

Enchantment removal is a one time shot, bud.

Enchantment removal is only a one-time shot if you are playing a silly 4v4 gametype or PvE. When it really counts, there are 8 people on each team (and currently 2 of those 8 are often Mesmers).

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

Yeah, divine spirit is a once in 60 seconds, but still, I like it more.

It's still rather silly. Divine Spirit does have uses, but you shouldn't compare it directly to GoLE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

Let me guess... you play a Warrior.

Avarre plays many things, but most of them are played as a primary Mesmer.

«Ripskin · Nov 03, 2007, 06:08 AM // 06:08

No <_<
1 spell charge=1 enchant gone. Oops look reversal just fell off.
okay fine, but do I get my point off?

Faer · Nov 03, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

No <_<

Well, it seemed that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

1 spell charge=1 enchant gone. Oops look reversal just fell off.

In order to prevent what could turn into a long, drawn out, thread derailing discussion between people looking at a situation from two entirely viewpoints, I'll just ask:

Do you GvG competitively?

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

okay fine, but do I get my point off?

I have no idea?

Lord Sojar · Nov 03, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Let's put it this way.. GOOD monks rely on elementalist or mesmer secondary for energy management. Mo/Me and Mo/E you see a ton, followed VERY closely by Mo/W and Mo/D.

Necros rely on mesmer or ele energy management a lot and Monk or Rit for self healing/party healing. Soul Reaping is still powerful. N/Mo, N/Me, or N/Rt are most popular, followed closely by N/E.

Mesmers don't need a 2ndary, they are overpowered by themselves.

Warriors really don't need a 2ndary, if you know wtf your doing.

Rangers... eh, they have some niche 2ndary stuff that can be very powerful (primarily due to expertise), but their primary skill spread is amazing. R/Mo and R/Me seem to be very popular, as well as good old R/W and R/N.

Paragons use warrior 2ndary a TON. I vote paragons, and expel hexes on a support para is A+.

Assassins are fine with just their primary. A/Me is popular for shadow form BS though.

Dervish, lolz... I think they have been and currently are overpowered in a lot of aspects. They are like Ranger+Warrior+Monk all combined into one. Great self heals, very good AL, massive dmg potential. They are not reliant on anything but themselves. Some mesmer skills fit nicely into their bars though.

Ritualist are perfectly fine without a 2ndary as well, but mesmer emanagment is nice.

So, here comes the irony.

Mesmers are the LEAST reliant of all the classes, but most of the classes are reliant on mesmer 2ndary (if they know what the hell they are doing). Irony is amazing.

Avarre · Nov 03, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

Let me guess... you play a Warrior. (That's my polite way of calling BS on your idea of how the game works.)

Go ask an elementalist what they think of your theory. ^_^

As a non-interrupt ranger, I promise my job has nothing whatsoever to do with anything the warriors are doing.

I play midline/backline classes.

It sounds like you're playing your ranger wrong. There is almost no good situation where you would not have interrupts on your bar as a Ranger, as that is the main strength of the class.

Maybe you could be playing a trapper, in which case, your job is to screw up enemy warriors and lock down enemy defense so warriors can kill things (you should still have a dshot).
Maybe you're playing a toucher or a damage attack skill ranger, in which case you are doing your job worse than a warrior could have.

Most likely, you're gimmicking in a team full of rangers in PvE though, which is a build designed for newer or less experienced players, in an area where game mechanics are pretty much irrelevant. You might think my idea is BS, but I assure you, you don't have an idea.

«Ripskin · Nov 03, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Well, it seemed that way.
In order to prevent what could turn into a long, drawn out, thread derailing discussion between people looking at a situation from two entirely viewpoints, I'll just ask:

Do you GvG competitively?
I have no idea?

Two things. you're right, why should we bicker about things like these? We're mostly adults here.

I try to, I've done top 50, but I've grown rusty over the past 1 1/2 years.. -_-

CHunterX · Nov 03, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Warrior.

There are two classes in the game - Warriors, and people that make Warriors kill faster.

The Warrior is dependent on the midline to shut down defenses and the monks to keep them up as they push on the enemy. People die to warriors, and hence they either try to shut the warriors down or kill the other team (with warriors) before the other warriors kill them. Thus, it is everyone else's job to make sure the warrior can, and continues to, do his job.

A Warrior without support ends up with snares, 9000% chance to be blocked, blind, and is linebacked while his bull's strike is diverted.

(Sins and Dervishes are merely a subset of Warriors)

This isn't an argument on what class relies on other professions, it was what classes rely on their own secondaries.

Faer · Nov 03, 2007, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

Two things. you're right, why should we bicker about things like these? We're mostly adults here.

I think Avarre is actually like, 8 or something, but yeah, other than him...

«Ripskin · Nov 03, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Well I'm talking about guru in general.

arcady · Nov 03, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

I have played all the professions and find that as arcady says they all can stand on their own (monks can smite----I use my smiting monk a lot in my h/h and lots of stuff takes double holy damage

)

Yes, but if your monk is taking smiting, you're weakening your monk. Let someone else in the group be the offense.

I'm assuming this thread was about the need for secondaries, not about solo play versus having a team (be that team humans, heroes, or henchies).

So when I said my first comment, it was about using your secondary profession - none of them need to. In fact most of them are just as good if not better using only skills from their own primary profession. Especially monks - who are usually weakened notably if they use their secondary skills.

I only ever dip into my secondary skills if the mission or quest specifically calls for something in my secondary - like when I am forced to do a mission or quest solo, without even the aid of my heroes or henchies.

An example being the mission at the party of nobles that lets you into Vabbi... I couldn't pull it off, even using smiting (as that is so weak). When I got to the 're-enact the battle of Palawo Jacco' part, it became a never ending click fest - I and he healed at the same rate we took damage... So I had to leave, equip secondary skills, and come back for offense. Usually I would just throw in a hero for that. By having those secondary skills in there, I lost about half of my defensive line - I was very weak, as the monk is just not built for how I had to use it).

Now if we were talking about which class is weakest in solo play, then yeah, probably the monk - even though it is what is used for the '55 build' - that is a very fragile build requiring precise timing on the player's part, and other than that build, any solo monk is essentially a sitting duck.

But this is a thread about secondaries - and I don't think any class needs them. They are handy for some builds, but for almost every mixed build, there is a single class build that is often just as good if not better - at least for general utility. Special circumstances provide the exceptions.

arcady · Nov 03, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Let's put it this way.. GOOD monks rely on elementalist or mesmer secondary for energy management. Mo/Me and Mo/E you see a ton, followed VERY closely by Mo/W and Mo/D.

Only time I ever run out of energy is when I over-prot / over-heal, and I know when I'm doing it... when I get 'caught up in the moment' and start click spamming.

Otherwise, I rely on my own monk skills and my energy to be my energy management, and if I'm playing 'up to my skill', it works.

Using one of those signets from the elementalist or mesmer line, at least in PvE, is a crutch for players who get too excited and over-cast.

CHunterX · Nov 03, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Using one of those signets from the elementalist or mesmer line, at least in PvE, is a crutch for players who get too excited and over-cast.

Actually, they are Glyphs, Stances, and Enchantments. I bet you are one of those players that has all your party members bring self heals, instead of having them do their jobs.